], [ARCHIVAL CLIP, BARBARA HARRIS: Probably racist.]. Basically, the midwife toad has a strange habit for toads. Destiny says one day, she and her mom were in the car, and her mom said She said, "I don't know, you know, maybe they'll grow bigger? It's against the rules. ], You get them $200 each, which they can spend on crack. Its so good that it makes you not want to trash the house, you know what I mean? DESTINY HARRIS: Oh my goodness. Which I find kind of hard to believe but, then again, I must have read at least 100 news articles as I was reporting this story. But the story he told us begins around 25 years ago. CHARLOTTE ZIMMER: Radiolab is supported in part by the National Science Foundation and CHARLOTTE and VERONICA ZIMMER: The Alfred P. Sloan Foundation. He hit the lecture circuit and he hit it big. CARL ZIMMER: You know, the fact is that taking care of animals, trying to keep them alive in a building is not an easy thing, especially if it's 1903. JAD: These were kids that didn't end up with Barbara? That, in a sort of ass backward way was Michael's question. If they see methyl groups sitting on that bit of DNA, they are pissed. Radiolab is supported in part by the National Science Foundation and by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. SMITTY HARRIS: He was just You know, most babies are kinda peaceful, he was never really peaceful. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: Why? And I told Destiny I was thinking about this and asked her about it. SAM KEAN: The sperm carries these marks to the next generation. When they got another call from a social worker saying that same mother, Destiny's birth mother, had given birth to another child. The results are obvious to you. LYNN PALTROW: The women who I've worked with, who've had a history of drug problems, aren't like the examples that she gives. CARL ZIMMER: And in1923, he actually comes to England. What they decided to do first was to try to figure out which rat was which, which meant, interestingly, counting all the legs. PAT: The way she saw it, the state, the federal government, somebody BARBARA HARRIS: Should say, "You're not doing this. BARBARA HARRIS: "She's born and tested positive for PCP crack and heroin." Yeah. I think all parents do this, is that you slip into this Lamarckian delusion that What you do with your kids can somehow rewrite all of that. JAD: I got to say this is spooky. Is it a big town? Then World War One came and that disrupted everything. And when I found out the bill didn't pass, I just thought, "I have to come up with something else. Telling some genes to turn off now, other genes to turn on. He had one remaining midwife toad. [ARCHIVAL Clip, Panel: You don't think that they should have their children back?]. ROBERT: Well, that's the good news, but unfortunately there is some bad news here. They like to hang out in the water and the females like to lay eggs in the water. The show is nationally syndicated and is available as a podcast. Once a kid is born, their genetic fate is pretty much sealed. It all came down to this jar with his toad in it. JAD: What you see in the records, is that one year PEJK MALINOVSKI: 100 liters. ROBERT: Because it's got the thing stuck to it? Listen Feb 3, 2023 Ukraine: The Handoff Pregnancy, and choice, in a war. He had one remaining midwife toad. And I was a waitress, I worked for IHOP for over 30 years. And eventually, over the millenia, what youd get, is a creature with a very long neck. And those lucky ones, according to Darwin's theory, they would have had to have been born with some random mutation in their genes That gave them an advantage in this situation. BARBARA HARRIS: I'm not saying that these women are dogs but they're not acting any more responsible than a dog in heat. I agree with Lynn, that this program does perpetuate a stereotype. When Emil gets to be eight, I'm cutting him off. Once their born, their genes are fixed and change does not happen in a generation or two. Have you ever had someone call or write you and say that they regret their decision? He was miserable to look at. Really slowly, gradually, achingly slowly. SAM KEAN: In a little community called verkalix. And as of 11:01 a.m. on Tuesday, when were recording this, we have not broken the show. And when he examined it, he noticed that there was a syringe hole there. And when she had a baby. And he said, "Barbara, I'm not buying a school bus." You know, when smart people say, you know, "There's no such thing as nature and nurture it's only interaction of the two," You're like, "What the hell does that mean?" The reason they're more aroused is that the mom's licking activates the release of adrenaline and noradrenaline in the pup. JAD: Because, you know, that Ive got these two kids, right? They would experience these wild changes from harvest to harvest. I could have turned out like some of the other kids. What can't you? Each stone represents a radioisotope by means of a. And, you know, there was kind of antisemitism growing at this time, so he thought that someone had framed him, and six weeks after Nobel published his results in Nature, Kammerer sent a letter to Moscow. Once their born, their genes are fixed and change does not happen in a generation or two. We had an expression here, "Dig where you stand." JAD: But that you supposedly can't get to. How was this woman allowed", "To walk into the hospital and drop off a damaged baby and just walk away with no consequences?". Radiolab branded apparel and accessories are available at the Official Radiolab Online Store, aka the Swag Lab. But I'm going to give them a basin of water. Like have you ever had one of those moments where you suddenly are your dad and it catches you off guard? ROBERT: Is that what you're saying? She carries your kids for nine months and you're like, "That poor male toad.". They decided to explore this question. So they can grab onto the female and hold tight while they're mating. Oh you said it so much more diplomatically. I don't like to upset people. You've got these toads who hate water. You just haven't evolved for this and there's no way you can, at least not quickly. PAT: And at a certain point, I noticed over my shoulder Barbara's crouched down and she's got her phone out and she's taking a picture of this just perfect little scene. But according to Kammerer, here's what happened when he heated up the toads little cage. Everybody we talked to seems to think there's something really interesting going on here. I agree with Lynn, that this program does perpetuate a stereotype. And to believe anything else, that's naive. So he's got to live his life as a toad with all this baggage on him? Its something I still think about all the time. That was nice. CARL ZIMMER: I know what I'll do, I'm going to set up a terrarium for them and I'm going to make it hot, really uncomfortably hot. ROBERT: I wonder. New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. BARBARA HARRIS: This is 750 and this is 200. This is from 2002. PAT: And she told Barbara, "There's something you need to know about this baby.". PAT: But at that point just two of the six boys were living at home, Brian and Rodney. Heart disease. So here's what you're going to notice. It's a guided audio tour through cities where Radiolab Ken Burns and others. And um Doctors would later explain to Barbara that Destiny's mom had been addicted to drugs while she was pregnant. I mean, they didn't have porridge. And according to Barbara, the majority of the women she pays are white. You know, just take a little peek for themselves, and every time SAM KEAN: Kammerer said no, they were his specimens. Assuming that you can survive the ordeal, and you grow up, and you have kids of your own, the data seems to say that your kids will benefit from your suffering. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: You know, you've got all these chemicals around. CARL ZIMMER: She is nine. There's going to be this massacre of toads and only a few lucky ones are going to survive. [laughs] "This may hurt you my son, but I'm doing it for my grandchildren.". PAT: The question that was stuck in my head right then was, "If you could choose between being born knowing that your life might end up like that and not like it is now, or not been born at all, what would you have done?". CARL ZIMMER: And he makes a very careful study of this hand. SECTION I - Story 1 (Lamark, Krammerer & the Midwife Toads) 1. On the one hand, she says, immediately, cheques started arriving. Radiolab is on YouTube! You're now hearing Lamarck's name invoked these days because there are things beyond genes that we pass down to our children. Just a little. We talked to her for a little while and PAT: At a certain point the social worker pulls out a stack of papers. Radiolab is supported in part by the National Science Foundation and by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. So thats the reason, of course, that we work with rats because we can get inside the brain. [chuckles], Yes, yes. Hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser, Radiolab is a podcast known for using innovative sound design to ask deep questions and investigative journalism to get the answers. In RadioLab a laboratory setting is used, in which the player receives radioactive stones that emit alpha, beta and gamma radiation particles. My situation turned out positive. I'm trying to remember. OLOV BYGREN: A lot of diagnoses actually. Still, that's a burden that, he's carrying a big burden there. JAD: I know! It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser. I mean, I'm married to a Black man. Since birth. And The other day someone was whistling and I was like, "Stop it", and it just hit me, I was like, "Oh God, I was him", it's never appeared until now. Radiolab is on YouTube! I do mean that. Here, Kammerer's was saying, "You can do this even on a physical level.". PAT: She did. Let me say this again. I had everybody's abuse on my back and I didn't care how we said it, or how we did it. MICHAEL MEANEY: That's it. Move on to the next cage, yes, no? It's off-limits. It was just no baby should have to come into the world like that. Sincerely, Jennifer.". PAT: For me, this whole story really shifted PAT: When I started spending some time with Destiny, Barbara's 22-year-old daughter. Your boys will first grow taller and taller for the next few years, and when they get to be about 9, 10 years old, they're going to stop growing just for a few years. A lot of times that's not the case. BARBARA HARRIS: They were seven and eight at the time. BARBARA HARRIS: And I knew that the only way I was going to get a daughter was if I went and became a foster parent and asked for one. So she told me Barbara had another baby and BARBARA HARRIS: Did we want it? Well, yep, that is so true. SAM KEAN: If you have a starving daddy, it turns out that the baby actually gets some sort of health benefit. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: At once and we're watching 40 litters at a time. BARBARA HARRIS: Barbara Harris. According to Frances, it's not just sitting up there perfectly preserved, it's in the middle of the cell, it's crowded. [chuckles], OLOV BYGREN: Yes, yes. That's what I remember her saying. MICHAEL MEANEY: I was an undergraduate student. But luckily for the Vivarium and for our story, they had a guy. It happens. Famine again, and these changes would just bounce back and forth. But then, a few years would pass, crops would bounce back. CARL ZIMMER: They'd spend more time in the water. Watching this, I couldn't help but think that Destiny's very existence is probably the most interesting argument against what Barbara is doing. We have experts even in very specific fields of study, so you will definitely find a writer who can manage your order. With a child, they give you a whole folder full of information, tells you all about them. And she says, one day, this idea just came to her. I got these genes from somewhere, but I kind of feel like she was a surrogate, like she carried me for my real mom. SAM KEAN: No, they did not have them on land. He was just You know, most babies are kinda peaceful, he was never really peaceful. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: Putting this into context, you know, you have a rat mom and they have about 16 to 20 babies. Or is it? I ended up finding myself really conflicted about it. Thats like, I mean, that seems like a thing that would be frightening. SAM KEAN: I guess the way I would look at it is that you can change your environment a lot more easily than you can change your genes. ROBERT: Just for those years. ROBERT: So if they saw somebody who was starving as a kid in 1820, they could then see, "Well, when those people had children and grandchildren, did anything change? The cheapest estimate is the work that needs to be done in 14 days. Is that what you're saying? JAD: And at first, it didn't go so well because, you know, if you're a land toad and you're trying to have sex in the water, it's kind of hard. She said, "Well, she's just beautiful and she has lips like a baby doll." JAD: Well, if a mother a rat mother licking her baby can have such a profound effect, basically change the expression of the genes in the baby, well that's hopeful. LULU: A really good radiolab about this called Inheritance. We neuter them.". JAD: And what about the four kids that weren't raised with Barbara? JAD: See, this is the story of science that doesn't get told. PAT: I like you, I get the sense that there's a lot of warmth in you. That's 9, 10, 11. You know? ], [ARCHIVAL CLIP, Jad Abumrad: Yeah, lets read.]. IMDb is the world's most popular and authoritative source for movie, TV and celebrity content. MICHAEL MEANEY: Yeah, it drifts into something like a shopping channel. I mean, he hates water. Enhancing public understanding of science and technology Yeah, we're exploring questions of lwhat can you pass down to your kids and their kids? [1] Radiolab was founded by Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich in 2002. She was totally an oops kid. I asked Barbara about some of the things that she'd said because, to be totally honest, they kind of turn my stomach. They like to hang out in the water and the females like to lay eggs in the water. So much can happen after that. How much of you will echo into the future and how much of you won't? Okay, and then I just had to accept it. I know! More what kind of stuff? To her, I matter. ROBERT: Cause we were talking to science writer, Carl Zimmer, and he told us that back in the early 1900s, this tension between Lamarck and Darwin got extra tense. And since Kammerer kept the heat up, toads basically had to stay there, in this watery place that they had not evolved for. BARBARA HARRIS: After I've gotten to know so many of the women. A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of. Yes, she has the same name as me. SAM KEAN: Because it would reflect badly on the Soviet state. BARBARA HARRIS: Since birth. Who now works at Columbia University. I should add too. My home village was 10 miles North of polar circle. Then, Carl told us about this research that showed Well, he couldn't quite remember the details. You just have to weigh it, is it worth it? His famous example was giraffes. You are not God. CARL ZIMMER: The right hand had been cut off for microscopic slides. [foreign language]. And so, you could only see one nuptial pad, and it all comes down to thisand all of that was just about to fall apart. And at a time when you're not making the best decisions anyway. CARL ZIMMER: Lamarckism pretty much died there. BARBARA HARRIS: Sounds bizarre, but it's a solution. And then that baby would stretch and stretch, and it would give a little more stretching to its baby. PAT: And as soon as she got there to pick him up, she could tell that something was wrong. You know what they're going to go do with that money. JAD: So imagine the DNA in that brain cell. Take a look, explore and subscribe! I wont say too much more except it includes one of my favorite kind of scientific parables that like Ive ever heard. They both say that they actually often forget that they're not biologically related. JAD: Or did I somehow learn that? PAT: Barbara has this drawer in her desk. LULU: Yeah, thats it. As a parent, you are a tiny blip in a very, very, long story. But this stuff you're telling me about Sweden feels very grim in a certain way. MICHAEL MEANEY: Yes. Okay, so lets get going and stick with your boy, Lamarck, just for a sec. Then choose either Section II OR Section III and answer all questions in that . FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: This is real physical-chemical interaction between what's going on in the environment and what's going on with the DNA. BARBARA HARRIS: That's how we ended up with four of them. ", BARBARA HARRIS: And I called my husband again at work and said, "They want to know if we want to take the baby." That doesn't matter. MICHAEL MEANEY: I think the Swedish data are really, really strong, and very reliable. SAM KEAN: This is what's called the slow growth period. He stuffed himself silly; 9, 10, 11 years old, so he's a happy grandpa, you the grandson, you then would have. His reputation was that he could get inside the mind of, say, a salamander and know just what it wanted to eat. You know? That is a bad way to start a kid's life but that's just the beginning of the kid's life. They could eat twice, three times as much. All right, I'll get in the water." OLOV BYGREN: Something happens on the molecular level. Darwin's theory would have said, you know, 90% of the toads are going to die. Yes, no, okay, move on to the next cage, yes, no? LULU: In a very real way, we've been thinking a lot about inheritance. SAM KEAN: He was really one of the first grand theorists in biology. MICHAEL MEANEY: Yeah, you can't touch that. So now, the genes can make the proteins that make the rats a good mom? What do I know? Or is it? When I started spending some time with Destiny, Barbara's 22-year-old daughter. So we're going to leave you with a story from our producer, Pat Walters, about one woman's radical A few months ago, Pat made his way down in North Carolina, to a small suburb outside of Charlotte to visit this family. Well, her explanation is that these women are having, in her terms, litters of damaged babies and society forever will be responsible for them. SAM KEAN: Except he had one. JAD: Hey, wait. I just saw them as child abusers. Then, Carl told us about this research that showed JAD: Well, he couldn't quite remember the details. PAT: Did that scare you at all? JAD: So I guess you could say to yourself, "Seven out of eight of these kids did all right?". Like, mine are bigger, you know." Higher frequencies of heart attacks. ROBERT: That's interesting. JAD: I dont know. Also, thanks to Carl Zimmer whose latest is. He's not just talking about toads anymore, he's gone way beyond toads. I'm going to graduate with honors and one day I'm going to be able to tell her, "Look, I did this. He was known for going around and giving, what he called, his big show lectures, where he would wow whole audiences of people. JAD: [expletive] That was awesome. fact checked by Jamie Frater. ROBERT: Kammerer, for one, was sent off to work as a sensor for the Austrian military. And they had more. Kammerer thought, "Wow.". JAD: Anyhow, so you got this guy, Paul Kammerer, who's good with animals. ROBERT: He was a born nurturer and he adored animals. JAD: These are four kids from the same birth mother? JAD: Or very many of them right at all, but, you know, his basic idea seems to be true. Live shows were first offered in 2008. Yes. Yeah. ROBERT: Although, you know, sometimes that your grandfather's suffering helps you. She's somewhere, but it's not good from what we've heard. They began to grow these all puffy things on their hands. Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab today. We neuter them.". Barbara Harris. ROBERT: Remind me this. All of our writers are dedicated to their job and do their best to produce all types of academic papers of superior quality. The authoritative record of programming is the audio record. SAM KEAN: And at a time when you're not making the best decisions anyway. I think that's where Lamarck's ideas can be woven in and make some sense. Because it would reflect badly on the Soviet state. PAT: Barbara says they've reached out to her many times but they never heard back. All the babies I had seen and all the people that have called me to tell me about their babies that were damaged. JAD: In just two generations, these toads seem to have done something that should have taken, I don't know, 50, 100 generations? One time, and I'm on flighter. It's such a surprising result. JAD: The sneaky idea here is that the blacksmiths, the giraffes, they made it happen. He actually named his daughter Lacerta, which is a genus of lizard. And right now, I'm student teaching. So much can happen after that. They all go down to the DNA, surround that methyl and just, pow! But this was a really, really tough place to grow up. JAD: In those books you can read everything about the citizens of verkalix, going back hundreds of years. OLOV BYGREN: So they didn't starve to death. And I packed up my stuff, it's pretty much done. Destiny has, what, three brothers and sisters that also were raised with her? Knock it right off the DNA. And um PAT: Doctors would later explain to Barbara that Destiny's mom had been addicted to drugs while she was pregnant. To fellow named Jean-Baptiste Pierre Antoine de Monet, chevalier de Lamarck. This whole toad thing, to the Darwinian faction, it didn't scan really. [chuckles]. [WILL: Hi, this is Will, calling from Northumberland, England. He thought that because theyre swinging hammers all day, they got big bulky muscles, and then theyd pass the muscles to their children. Visited Kammerer's lab when Kammerer wasn't there. There were four girls and Barbara and Destiny told me that a few years ago they found three of them and they all either were in college or had finished college. It's a small forest area, very beautiful. SAM KEAN: And his lab ended up getting destroyed. JAD: I want to start with a parental day dream for a second. Hi, this is Will, calling from Northumberland, England. If your grandpa didn't starve, instead he lived through great times. Now, according to Carl, your genes are still fixed. CARL ZIMMER: And when it came time to mate, the males and the females, they would mate in the water. So FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: So we start looking at maternal care. I mean, youre just youre saying a lot of things that are really impressive. But I take it that we have more control over our destinies and our kids' destinies than we would've thought. So were getting close to the moment of truth, because there it is. JAD: His big idea, as you might know, is that what a person does in their lifetime could be directly passed to their kids. CARL ZIMMER: He was mighty skeptical. Catch up with new episodes and hear classics from our archive. Whole lifetime of stretching. [ARCHIVAL Clip, Daytime Talkshow: You know what they're going to go do with that money. Because the Soviets, they believe in Karl Marx's idea that human beings were an improvable species, that if you can change the conditions around people, you change the people. Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. And that number, by the way, has grown a lot. Thats like, I mean, that seems like a thing that would be frightening. PEJK MALINOVSKI: What does that mean, he was an idiot? JAD: It's writer, Sam Kean again, and here's, he says, what you need to know about the midwife toad. She was thinking BARBARA HARRIS: "Everybody's motivated by money., BARBARA HARRIS: Can I offer these women money to use birth control? JAD: And thats wrong [laughs].Thats not how it works. By Recode Staff Updated Oct 25, 2017, 12:01am. You're obviously a great mom, but that feels cold to me. Whole lifetime of stretching. PAT: And Barbara found herself returning to a thought she'd kind of always had. It says, "Race of Supermen." You are not God. On the Radiolab website they define the show as follows: "Radiolab is a show about curiosity. Yeah, there you go. Who gave Destiny her first checkup told Barbara That she was delayed and she was always going to be delayed because of her prenatal neglect. The critical part of this Is that all these changes wake up this little gang of proteins. That the licking is changing the baby's DNA? I mean, the idea that they could be constrained by their DNA, that maybe one of us gave them a bit of DNA thats gonna hold them back? Frankly, this makes being 9, 10, 11, 12 like a rather crucial. DESTINY HARRIS: As you can see, I like to talk. 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